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Well, *that* was educational...
Summary: today was the house inspection. The deal is off.
With half a million bucks on the line, it was no time to skimp on inspections, so we went with a recommendation from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
elizabear, of Tri-Value Consultants. I'll pass on the recommendation -- the phone number is (781) 334-3830, and they were worth every cent.
They're a fascinating pair. It's a father/son firm, and a rather improbable-looking pair. Joe, the dad, is whatmsmemory and I call "A Guy" -- old-stock Lynnfield 50-something, a bit taciturn but clearly knows his stuff. Michael, the son, is what happens when a to-the-bone geek grows up in a construction household, as shaggy as any fan but with a different professional focus than most. As far as I can tell, Michael embraced his father's craft because it gives him the excuse to learn absolutely everything about the construction business, and talk about all of it. They earned my respect in the first two minutes, when they shook our hands and gave us a copy of their book on the subject. (They overprinted, so they give a copy away with each inspection.) Indeed, the *very* first thing they did was to ask us what concerns we had -- msmemory listed the three things we had noticed, and they basically said, "Yep, that's three of the four major problems on the exterior".
They do things quite methodically: the two of them go around a section (the outside, the basement, the garage) alone for a while, then Joe ushers the clients in to talk to Michael while he scopes out the next part. And oh, man, can Michael talk. He walks you around the space, talking a mile a minute about every detail, and he has a remarkable eye for detail. I learned more about construction in those two hours than previously in my whole life. Michael scarcely even pauses for breath, save to ask whether you have questions every couple of minutes.
Of course, they particularly focus on the problems, and unfortunately they found lots to talk about. The biggest was the one we had missed. Michael raised his finger, explaining that this is *not* a scientific probe and therefore he shouldn't be able to do this -- and stuck it through the trim around the garage. This trim now consisted solely of paint, without much wood behind it. Making it worse, he pointed out that if the termites had eaten the trim out six feet up, that meant that they had certainly eaten much of everything *below* that, and probably much of what was above. That pretty much killed the deal right there, but there was lots more.
He pointed out the little holes in the upper woodwork -- signs we had missed of woodpeckers, meaning that there were ants digging around in the roof wood. (Later, he showed us the telltale sawdust in the basement, where the ants had neatly deposited the wood they had eaten through.) The erosion of the chimney thatmsmemory had noticed was more serious than I had given it credit for: he showed the signs that stuff was leeching through the brick. We had *not* noticed the power line from the street, that was being practically torn out by the tree that had grown onto it.
They proved that they could compliment things: the electrical system was solid, and Michael was clearly impressed by whoever had installed it. And to be fair, we didn't have them go through the interior, which I *suspect* would have fared better -- since it was clear that the deal was dead, we agreed to have them just do the exterior and structural inspection, and knock a bit off their fee.
I was feeling slightly guilty about having to spike the deal until we got around to the crack in the garage foundation that I had noticed a week ago. This pretty large crack (a good half-inch wide) had been hastily filled in with concrete, recently enough that the concrete was still wet. That qualified as intentional decepton, and clumsily enough done that I couldn't even respect it as an intelligent decision on their part. Michael explained that this crack wasn't really surprising -- the house appeared to have been built on fill, and a crack of that sort was fairly common. But it was still a significant concern: in such an overwhelmingly damp location, this crack would require careful monitoring and maintenance over the years.
Overall, it boiled down to two main elements. First, the house was built in 1988. I had initially thought this a positive: it's relatively new construction. But Michael pointed out that that was at the height of the last housing bubble, and many houses were constructed fast and cheap. This house was apparently pretty typical of the time: nice design and layout, but relatively slapdash construction. And many primary systems (heating, cooling, etc) at that time were fairly poorly made, so all of them were at or past the end of their recommended lifespans. And second, while the interior of the house was spotless, the exterior and the bones of the house had been neglected -- and that close to water, neglect was pretty damaging. (Michael wasn't even willing to open the windows to check them -- the sills were rotted enough that he thought there was a chance they might fall out.)
I'm somewhat surprised by our reactions. We're both a little disappointed: I still think that we're unlikely to find another house that suits us better in terms of interior design, and it's going to take a lot of work to find another we like as much. But there is a palpable sense of having dodged a bullet, a mistake that we would have regretted for decades. It cost five hundred bucks, but saved us a thousand times as much.
So these guys are definitely getting our business again as this project continues. We're not under any illusions that we're going to find a house they completely approve of, but if we can choose one that they can't find *terrifying* problems in, it's probably pretty good...
With half a million bucks on the line, it was no time to skimp on inspections, so we went with a recommendation from
elizabear, of Tri-Value Consultants. I'll pass on the recommendation -- the phone number is (781) 334-3830, and they were worth every cent.They're a fascinating pair. It's a father/son firm, and a rather improbable-looking pair. Joe, the dad, is what
msmemory and I call "A Guy" -- old-stock Lynnfield 50-something, a bit taciturn but clearly knows his stuff. Michael, the son, is what happens when a to-the-bone geek grows up in a construction household, as shaggy as any fan but with a different professional focus than most. As far as I can tell, Michael embraced his father's craft because it gives him the excuse to learn absolutely everything about the construction business, and talk about all of it. They earned my respect in the first two minutes, when they shook our hands and gave us a copy of their book on the subject. (They overprinted, so they give a copy away with each inspection.) Indeed, the *very* first thing they did was to ask us what concerns we had -- msmemory listed the three things we had noticed, and they basically said, "Yep, that's three of the four major problems on the exterior".They do things quite methodically: the two of them go around a section (the outside, the basement, the garage) alone for a while, then Joe ushers the clients in to talk to Michael while he scopes out the next part. And oh, man, can Michael talk. He walks you around the space, talking a mile a minute about every detail, and he has a remarkable eye for detail. I learned more about construction in those two hours than previously in my whole life. Michael scarcely even pauses for breath, save to ask whether you have questions every couple of minutes.
Of course, they particularly focus on the problems, and unfortunately they found lots to talk about. The biggest was the one we had missed. Michael raised his finger, explaining that this is *not* a scientific probe and therefore he shouldn't be able to do this -- and stuck it through the trim around the garage. This trim now consisted solely of paint, without much wood behind it. Making it worse, he pointed out that if the termites had eaten the trim out six feet up, that meant that they had certainly eaten much of everything *below* that, and probably much of what was above. That pretty much killed the deal right there, but there was lots more.
He pointed out the little holes in the upper woodwork -- signs we had missed of woodpeckers, meaning that there were ants digging around in the roof wood. (Later, he showed us the telltale sawdust in the basement, where the ants had neatly deposited the wood they had eaten through.) The erosion of the chimney that
msmemory had noticed was more serious than I had given it credit for: he showed the signs that stuff was leeching through the brick. We had *not* noticed the power line from the street, that was being practically torn out by the tree that had grown onto it.They proved that they could compliment things: the electrical system was solid, and Michael was clearly impressed by whoever had installed it. And to be fair, we didn't have them go through the interior, which I *suspect* would have fared better -- since it was clear that the deal was dead, we agreed to have them just do the exterior and structural inspection, and knock a bit off their fee.
I was feeling slightly guilty about having to spike the deal until we got around to the crack in the garage foundation that I had noticed a week ago. This pretty large crack (a good half-inch wide) had been hastily filled in with concrete, recently enough that the concrete was still wet. That qualified as intentional decepton, and clumsily enough done that I couldn't even respect it as an intelligent decision on their part. Michael explained that this crack wasn't really surprising -- the house appeared to have been built on fill, and a crack of that sort was fairly common. But it was still a significant concern: in such an overwhelmingly damp location, this crack would require careful monitoring and maintenance over the years.
Overall, it boiled down to two main elements. First, the house was built in 1988. I had initially thought this a positive: it's relatively new construction. But Michael pointed out that that was at the height of the last housing bubble, and many houses were constructed fast and cheap. This house was apparently pretty typical of the time: nice design and layout, but relatively slapdash construction. And many primary systems (heating, cooling, etc) at that time were fairly poorly made, so all of them were at or past the end of their recommended lifespans. And second, while the interior of the house was spotless, the exterior and the bones of the house had been neglected -- and that close to water, neglect was pretty damaging. (Michael wasn't even willing to open the windows to check them -- the sills were rotted enough that he thought there was a chance they might fall out.)
I'm somewhat surprised by our reactions. We're both a little disappointed: I still think that we're unlikely to find another house that suits us better in terms of interior design, and it's going to take a lot of work to find another we like as much. But there is a palpable sense of having dodged a bullet, a mistake that we would have regretted for decades. It cost five hundred bucks, but saved us a thousand times as much.
So these guys are definitely getting our business again as this project continues. We're not under any illusions that we're going to find a house they completely approve of, but if we can choose one that they can't find *terrifying* problems in, it's probably pretty good...
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-- Dagonell
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However when we got to the garage/barn things went south quickly. While standing under the garage, with two cars parked in it, I leaned against one of the large telephone pole sized posts that were supporting it. When my hand sank in an inch five feet off of the ground leaving a hand shaped impression, and moved the post an inch, we all expectantly looked at the ceiling and then beat a hasty retreat out of the barn. I normally probe with my leather awl, and when my hand can go in unaided it is a really bad sign.
I am sorry that this house is not in good shape, but you made an excellent choice by choosing a good set of inspectors. May the next one be in better shape.
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I'm sorry that the house fell through for you, but at least you avoided a potentially costly mistake.
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(OK, so maybe there isn't an old saying like that. But there ought to be. :)
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Finally, he concluded his inspection with a "nothing I could find" report. We said "you mean we should buy it?" and he was very clear: "I don't say yes. I merely failed to say no." Good inspector.
These guys have saved you a bundle. Better than that - they have given you a lot of tools (if they really did the explanations you cite) so you can reject a lot of property out of hand all on your own.
I'm sorry for your disappointment - but awfully glad you dodges this rather large bullet.
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Not getting the "perfect" house (glenn and I lost one by a few hours -- then it turned out the real estate agent was convicted of fraud for holding back bids), is one of those things that I think you probably have to go through at least once. Sort of like Cynthia's description of financial virginity....
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Congratulations
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If a homeowner can ignore termite damage that extensive, they might have been clueless in other areas, too.
The good/bad thing about all of this is that you have seen a house that you like -- which means you have a standard to measure other houses against. Mnus the termites & etc. that is.
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The ants were clearly omnipresent, though, as was the general rotting of the woodwork. In practice, those were more serious for the current state. The house needs significantly more work than it looks like at first glance...
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We had some carpenter ants, (big black ants) which have now been taken care of. Anywhere there's damp wood, the carpenter ants will be very, very happy. But the damp is mostly taken care of now, so it shouldnt' be ongoing.
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There was one place that had regular basement floodings. I was able to spot that, because the dirt on the floor was in swirling patterns. Such patterns form when the dirt is lifted from the floor and redeposited when the water level goes back down. The real estate agent didn't know that one, so it felt pretty good to show him.
Good luck in finding the house you really want. I spent months on real estate web site, figuring out what I liked within my price range. Made a lot of decisions easier.
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Thanks.
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Housing bubbles
Our place in PA was built in 1986. The structure was largely solid, but it was built on a hillside, and, when we sold it, one of the potential buyers wanted an engineer to look at it. We learned that water running down the hill (some of it under the house) was washing away the hillside the house was on, and the house was slowly sliding down the hill. The engineer suggested ways to prevent disaster, but the buyer backed out anyway. (Not that that was strange. The strange part was that, even though we were then obliged to put the findings into our disclosures, our agent eventually found a buyer who didn't mind.)
Re: Housing bubbles
However, getting that report one month after having twins made it a Very Nonfun Situtation. And we could have lost a lot more on the house than we did. Which was really hard, because we loved that house dearly.
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Maybe you should look for a brick edifice? :)
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Mostly, this has been good at disillusioning me. Regardless of how nice a house looks on the surface, a really acid walkthrough is step number one...
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The place I'm living in at the moment (renting) is early art deco. Walls a good foot and a half thick, even interior walls. Some of the gas fittings could go replacing, and there are a few dodgy electrical bits, but I can't imagine this place ever falling down.
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When I designed my house, I endeavored to not make any decisions which would limit the lifespan of the house to less than 300 years. Now, I didn't succeed by any measure, and I have been battling carpenter ants, and actual carpenters putting holes in the structure, but to purposefully build such that 30 years is an average life expectancy is criminal. Sigh.
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That said: for someone interested in fixing up the issues, it's probably a perfectly decent house, if the price gets knocked down. (And the seller did express a willingness to knock the price down once we explained the problems.) But that's not us right now: too many different things need dealing with, and it's clear that there's going to be frequent ongoing maintenance required. Not terrible, but not the perfect house that would have gotten us to move to Framingham...
Not just a job, it's an inspection!
Anna Dimtriova Belokon