jducoeur: (Default)
jducoeur ([personal profile] jducoeur) wrote2006-09-27 02:30 pm
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TiVo questions

So here's a question to the TiVo users in the audience (I know there are a bunch of you out there):

I've got a Panasonic DVR that I'm quite happy with -- the UI suits me, it's got a big hard drive, it makes it trivially easy to burn stuff to DVD, and it doesn't attempt to be smarter than I am. It has only one drawback, but that's a *big* drawback: it only deals with two-digit channel numbers. Given that my cable actually has tons of channels beyond 99 (including all of the premium stations), that's a real limitation on what I can record. This is particularly an issue as I contemplate the second season of Rome, which is going to happen eventually.

So I'm idly curious about whether a TiVo would do better. Specifically, while I think I'd leave the Panasonic in place, I'm thinking of replacing the seldom-used VCR with a TiVo. That would allow me to hard-drive multiple shows at once, which is occasionally necessary. I think it would be worth it *if* it deals with the things that the Panasonic doesn't.

So the questions are:

1) Does TiVo deal properly with three-digit channels? (I suspect the answer is yes.)
2) Will a TiVo control my cable box? This is nearly as important, because the premium channels have to go through the cable box to get decrypted. The VCR (and, indeed, the Panasonic) has a "cable mouse" attachment that will change the channels on the cable box when needed -- does the TiVo have something similar? (This, I'm less sure about.)

Information about these questions (or suggestions of alternative ways I could configure a system that does what I want, including some device other than a TiVo) is solicited from unimind...

[identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 07:21 pm (UTC)(link)
[livejournal.com profile] dsrtao has answered the TiVo side; the alternative is to hook a dedicated PC up to your cable line and use software. There are solutions out there for both recording (EyeTV) and getting channel guides, and combining them results in a useable system. Cheaper? Maybe. Easier? Definitely not. Doable? Certainly. Immune to TiVo's continuous down-grading? Yes.

See, TiVo used to be my favorite company, but for the past three years has been steadily removing functionality from my box. You used to be able to skip forward in 30 second chunks; now, you have to enter a "cheat code" to enable that functionality. Things like that. The latest go-round was introducing software to "expire" old programs that you don't watch within a particular period, according to the broadcaster's wishes; not nice. Also, for no discernable reason the UI is getting slow as toast, when it used to be quite sprightly.

Other than that, it's a great product.
dsrtao: dsr as a LEGO minifig (Default)

[personal profile] dsrtao 2006-09-27 11:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been doing the research.

For a machine that can do:
- DVD play and record
- two tuners, both capable of HDTV and NTSC recording
- 300GB storage

You need to spend roughly $1000. This is about the same as an S3 TiVo with subscription.

Tradeoffs:

TiVo does all the work.
TiVo has a great UI
TiVo is in control
TiVo S3 does not have a DVD recorder built-in
TiVo charges a subscription fee
The PC is upgradable at whim (software)
The PC is upgradable at whim (hardware)
The PC will never use CableCard, and you will want to keep a tuner for any encrypted channels (HBO, Starz...)

[identity profile] zonereyrie.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 11:38 pm (UTC)(link)
I'll note it isn't hard to upgrade the drive in a TiVo. And the S3 also has an eSATA port which will be enabled in a future update to make it easy to expand storage without opening the box.

Another tradeoff: privacy

[identity profile] metageek.livejournal.com 2006-09-28 12:49 pm (UTC)(link)
The TiVo reports what you watch. I think they've promised not to abuse that data; but that doesn't mean much. If they ever go into Chapter 11, that promise can be broken like any other contract; and, under the Patriot Act, the FBI can get all their data just by asking.

Re: Another tradeoff: privacy

[identity profile] metageek.livejournal.com 2006-09-28 06:29 pm (UTC)(link)
I consider my privacy to be essentially an economic good

I can see that. What worries me is that, in a tyranny, privacy can be much more serious than that. For example, suppose the fundies get their way, and make most sex acts illegal; an obvious first step would be for the sex police to start data mining in records like TiVo and Google.

[identity profile] zonereyrie.livejournal.com 2006-09-27 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
30 second skip never changed. It has always been a toggle, all the way back to the 2.0 software - and I'm not sure it was in 1.3 at all. (I can only remember back to 2.0 - 7.3.1 is current on S2s, 8.0.1 on S3s.) It isn't a big deal, you enter the code (Select-Play-Select-3-0-Select) once and it toggles the Advance button to be 30-second skip, enter it again if you want to toggle it off. Similarly SPS9S turns on an on-screen clock.

The 'expiration' thing was so badly misreported it was sickening. Macrovision requires, in their license, support for analog content protection - including the flags. TiVo has a Macrovision license, and *must* have one. It is required as part of the DVD Forum license for DVD, and they have units with DVD. It was also required to get FCC approval for TiVoToGo (moving shows across a network to a PC). Not having a Macrovision license is simply not an option for them.

And they're not alone. ReplayTV had/has the same license. Other DVD recorders, DVRS, etc, do too. Even PC-based recording software sometimes has the same license - the very same flag bits reported on TiVo have been encountered in the wild with PC-based systems.

Everyone always makes it a TiVo issue, but it isn't - it is industry wide. It is harder to find a system *without* the Macrovision license than with it. TiVo is just the popular brand to it gets press.

On top of that, the flags are *illegal* to use on broadcast content, per the FCC. Every reported encounter so far as stemmed from improperly configured system at the content provider - cable or satellite company, local station, etc. And when it is reported to TiVo they have contacted the providers and had the problem fixed. The bits are meant only for PPV and other premium content.

It has been in the software for several years now, almost 4 years actually, and it was in there for a while before it was 'discovered' and a big fuss was made over it. It has been a non-issue for all but a handful of users. And going with another option doesn't mean you're sure to avoid it - Macrovision is nigh universal.

The slowdown is a real issue, the latest update needs to be optimized. TiVo is aware of the issue and the next update is supposed to improve performance. It is really most noticable on the 5xx Series2 boxes - those have the slowest hardware to start with. If you buy a box today you'd probably buy a S2DT or S3, the two fastest boxes they've ever made and the slowdown isn't an issue. The S2DT has 64MB RAM and the S3 128MB in the main bank, with more dedicated to other things - the S2 had 32MB and a slower CPU. That's why they're hit by it.

re: 30-second skip

[identity profile] etherial.livejournal.com 2006-09-28 04:24 am (UTC)(link)
Always a hack. Never standard. I've used TiVo since the very first box. Your UI and expiration issues probably have more to do with overloading it than it getting crufty.

Re: 30-second skip

[identity profile] metahacker.livejournal.com 2006-09-28 12:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry -- how would I "overload" it? Too many programs? Currently there are twelve saved programs. Interface: slow.