Dither, dither...

[jducoeur]

As previously mentioned, we brought Susana on board as a buyer's agent a few weeks ago. Since then, she's been seriously earning her keep, pointing us at potentially interesting houses and generally kicking the moving project into high gear.

Well, one of the listings caught my eye as sounding particularly attractive. On Friday, I went to look at it, and was surprised to find that I liked it even more in person. So we went back again tonight with msmemory so she could take a look, and we continue to be quite attracted to it. A smidgeon expensive, but it has everything we wanted and a couple that hadn't occurred to us to look for. (Like an acre of land, most of it forested wetland, so it isn't adding to the price but provides lots of privacy.) The house just feels really nice. Walking into it is like shrugging on a well-tailored overcoat: from the kitchen to the family room to the basement, it fits us well.

It does, of course, have one snag: it's out in Framingham. We'd talked about location before, and established that anything out to about Framingham or Chelmsford was okay if the house was perfect. Well, okay -- now we've found a near-perfect house, so we need to decide if we're serious about that.

It's an odd psychological barrier, crossing 128. Framingham really isn't all that far -- maybe 15 minutes further out from the city -- but we've heard so many people talk about how far they think of it being that it gives us pause. One of the objectives for this house is to have a good place to start entertaining again (it's delightfully well-laid-out for parties), and there's an odd little fear that no one will make the trek out there.

Of course, it isn't very rational. Everywhere is far from somewhere -- this location is considerably closer to Waltham than, say, Dorchester is, and people go there all the time. Some of it is probably just habit: I've lived in Waltham for over half my life, and msmemory nearly as long, so the idea of moving a significant distance away and having to learn the ins and outs of a new area is curiously daunting. Up until now, the house-buying process has been very intellectual, but now that push is coming to shove, we're learning a bit about ourselves.

We'll see. First we need to decide if we want it. Even if we do, a host of things could go wrong. But one way or another, this project has now taken on a dimension of reality that it didn't have before...

Comments

[tpau]

it isn't that framingham is far... it is that it is in ahigh-traffic zone, down a pay-highway. i think those two rather then distance would make folks not want to come out...

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Take Rt. 20. Just before the Sudbury Shaw's, turn left; go about 2 miles down, and 1/2 mile west. Presto, no tolls, no evil Friday rush hour traffic.
Or take Rt. 30 to Edgell Rd., 2 miles north and 1/2 mile west, more or less.

[galaneia.livejournal.com]

I almost never take the Pike to Framingham. I prefer to take 20, 30, or some other back road rather than get out with all those crazies who think that 70 is too slow for the right-most lane.

Honestly, I've made it to Dorchester once, and I don't plan on doing it again. The easiest way to get to Allston at this point is by car, but there are homicidal drivers, suicidal pedestrians, and very little parking, which means I blow off things there too. At this point I'd be more likely to trek out to Framingham; I understand the driving habits out that way a bit better, time-wise it's not as long, and it's probably easier to park.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

For your car-less friends, how far is it from the commuter rail?

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

There's a bus which runs near our potential house connecting with the Framingham stop on the commuter line, though the bus does not run late into the evening; late parties/guild meetings we'd presumably have to shuttle people to the train.
http://www.framinghamma.org/web/pages/Lift%20Main%20Page.htm
Bus lines 2 and 3; the corner of Edgell and Water is a scanty mile from the candidate house.

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

I don't measure distance in miles. I measure it in access methods. Walking, Subway, Bus, Commuter Rail, car. Framingham is out of bus range, and possibly commuter rail as well, depending how close the house is to the station.

[jducoeur]

True, although in practice it isn't much worse than north Waltham. In both cases, the only practical public transit is the train, which stops a bit too far away to conveniently walk but is easy to arrange a pickup. There are buses to our current house, but their hours are sufficiently poor to rarely be useful -- I can't recall anyone *ever* taking the bus to this house. And Framingham has much better cross-town bus routing than Waltham does -- it's actually easier to get from the Framingham train station to the new house than from the Waltham one to here. (Although the hours still suck enough that I doubt we'd use it much -- we'd be much more likely to arrange pickups.)

[pamelina.livejournal.com]

Fergus and Eleanor live in/near Framingham, and may even have less trouble attracting people to parties and to visit than Dorchester.

[cellio]

It sounds like a good house.

I don't claim to understand all the relevant factors, not being from there, but the question that immediately came to my mind is: how's the public transit to there? Many of the people you'd want to attract would be taking public transit rather than driving, so even if you yourselves drive, that's the metric to apply. Or so it seems from the outside.

This is not just a question of how long the trip is and how much hassle it is (transfers requiring walking, etc), though those are obviously factors too. But: how often do buses/trains run? How late at night? In what kinds of neighborhoods do you have to wait for transfers?

[jducoeur]

Well, part of the problem is that we seem unlikely to find a house that (a) we can afford, (b) we like, and (c) *really* has decent public transit. There are serious tradeoffs everywhere. Everything that has good enough public transit that people will actually use it either has its own location issues (eg, Dorchester) or is way too expensive for us...

[new-man.livejournal.com]

I wasn't going to comment on "farness", but I will a little. I have some friends who live out that way -- The Dark Place is out there, as are Cat & Preston. I've found that a lot of people live out there seem to stop coming into Boston. Cat comes in every once in a while, but it's tough to get anyone else from the other side of 128 to come into Boston for anything. I do head out that way every once in a while, but there's a certain quid pro quo; I'm more likely to go to Rhonwen's because she comes to me.

All right... on to my real point.

House shopping is like shopping at Pennsic. If you see something you like, put an offer on it. It doesn't obligate you to anything (they'll make a counter offer, you can always get out after the home inspection, etc.), and it's better than mulling it over for a week and then discovering its under agreement.

[jducoeur]

I've found that a lot of people live out there seem to stop coming into Boston.

Yep, that's a concern. For a number of reasons, I don't think that's too likely to happen to us, but it's something for us to think about. We have much more *control* over our own habits than other people's, though, so it's a bit easier to ponder. (The effect on our morning commute is another issue we're thinking about carefully.)

and it's better than mulling it over for a week and then discovering its under agreement.

Good point, but we've got a day or so while we're getting our ducks in a row for an offer. (Getting mortgage pre-approval, figuring the comparables and the like.) So that's our mulling time. And if it gets snatched out from under us in that relatively brief window, then it wasn't meant to be.

Like I said, so many things could go wrong in this process that I'm trying not to get *too* attached...

[hfcougar.livejournal.com]

I'll vaguely echo concerns expressed by others.

People will come out to you, at least for a while, but would there be a chance of you no longer coming in to people? You might think "no, of course not", but once you've settled in for a few years... I know I blow off a lot of stuff that I wouldn't if I weren't out in Waltham, and that's "close" by many people's standards.

Snow. How hard is it going to be in the winter?

Construction. Are you going to be screwed if Major Road going to your area goes down for the summer, or are there alternatives?

People without cars are going to have to go through a lot more maneuvering to get to you. It doesn't look like T passes work on the buses from the train either, which means someone taking the train and the bus both in and out is going to be blowing close to ten bucks on the trip. If it were me, and I were still at Simmons, there would be absolutely no way I'd have done it. Others may feel differently.

All that being said, what you really have to consider is if the house fills your needs. The rest of the tradeoffs are details.

[jducoeur]

You might think "no, of course not", but once you've settled in for a few years...

Well, we *are* slowing down a smidgeon to begin with, and that's a consideration unto itself. Actually, that's one of the attractions of the house -- it looks more comfortable for us to *live* in than anything else we've seen.

That said, we've never really been ones to let location prevent us from doing anything, and that seems unlikely to change. The actual time to get into the city isn't much greater except for rush hour, and in practice we do most of our going-to-stuff from work, so that doesn't change at all. So I think it's unlikely to change how much we do, although it might tweak exactly *what* we do. It probably has significantly less impact than getting jobs in other towns would.

Snow. How hard is it going to be in the winter?

Worse, certainly. The house is on a fairly small and backish road. OTOH, it's on a small but important road with a lot of *much* more expensive houses on it, so I suspect there is a lot of motivation for the town to do good snow removal. We need to ask some of the current Framingham residents, but my suspicion is that, in practice, it's not dramatically worse.

Are you going to be screwed if Major Road going to your area goes down for the summer, or are there alternatives?

Well, they're not going to close Route 90. And actually, there are a *lot* of ways to get within a couple of miles of the house: 90, 9, 20 and 30 all run pretty close. So one road going down might inconvenience us, but it doesn't trap us.

[siderea]

It's an odd psychological barrier, crossing 128. Framingham really isn't all that far -- maybe 15 minutes further out from the city -- but we've heard so many people talk about how far they think of it being that it gives us pause. One of the objectives for this house is to have a good place to start entertaining again (it's delightfully well-laid-out for parties), and there's an odd little fear that no one will make the trek out there.

It's not an unreasonable fear. Alastair and Myfanwy were very disappointed that people were so reluctant to come out when they entertained, and they lived in Framingham.

Something also to consider, if you were thinking postrevels: where is the Barony holding events these days? With postrevels issue, then, becomes what is the trajectory from site, to postrevel, to attendees' homes? Is it either near or en route to any of the above?

How big a priority is entertaining, anyways?

[jducoeur]

Alastair and Myfanwy were very disappointed that people were so reluctant to come out when they entertained, and they lived in Framingham.

Yeah, but their bigger problem was that they weren't as personally close to nearly as many people, so they're not a good data point. The personal connections are crucial when it comes to parties. As new_man was saying, these things are reciprocal -- people are more likely to come to your parties if and only if you come to theirs.

where is the Barony holding events these days?

That's something we've been thinking about. I think it's better than it used to be in that regard -- I believe more events have been drifting out into these parts than there used to be. But obviously it wouldn't be a viable location for a post-revel to an in-town event.

How big a priority is entertaining, anyways?

Weeeel, that's an interesting question. At the gut level, very important -- it's the single thing we've most been missing in the past few years. (Our current house is *way* too crowded to entertain well, its state of disrepair entirely aside.) Rationally, it's probably something we want to do well but occasionally.

A more interesting question is whether we invite people over for random gaming and stuff sometimes -- small-scale entertaining rather than larger. (We've already decided that we would probably turn the front parlour into a gaming/meeting room.) That's likely to be more often desireable, and the distance has more of an impact on it. It's those interactions with the community that we need to assess, and understand better how the move would affect them in practice...

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

We chose Chelmsford because it was near where John was working at the time, and we liked the house better than any of the other ones we'd seen. I think I looked at around 50 houses!

But it takes an hour to get to Cambridge with a car, longer by transit. Maybe this wouldn't be as much of a factor if we didn't have the kids, or if our schedule weren't an early one. (We're usually in bed by 9:30 or 10)

The Dorchester argument isn't quite applicable, because when folks go to Dorchester, they're going to a large concentration of people in the multi-houses, not just to two people. The gravity equation is a little different, even if you throw really good parties.

[its-just-me.livejournal.com]

Wishing you both good luck in the decision. If there's any consolation you're right near the restaurant, Ipanema, and Minado. They are both worth living near.

[laurion]

Thanks! Me and asdr83 are less than a 5 minute drive from Ipanema, so we've seen it quite a bit, but haven't yet gotten to try it. I'll bump it up the list now.

[patsmor.livejournal.com]

I might mention that when I was visiting out there most recently (combining a trip to the plant in Hudson with a trip to my college in Framingham and a visit to cvirtue et. al. that new highway structure made what had previously been a long circuit into a fairly zippy one.

On msmemory's discussion I "voted" for Framingham, but I know I don't really count.

Highways

[metageek.livejournal.com]

that new highway structure made what had previously been a long circuit into a fairly zippy one.

As I recall, it was night when I drove you out to Framingham. It would've taken much longer in the day. :-)

[antoniseb.livejournal.com]

Having lived in Waltham, Arlington, Framingham, Littleton, and Chelmsford, I can say that I was less active SCA wise when I was in Framingham, Littleton, and Chelmsford, than when I was in Arlington and Waltham. I also had a lot of difficulty getting visitors to come out. I really liked my house in Littleton, but we 'entertained' very seldom. People didn't want to come out that far, great house, or not.

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

It's hard to judge over a long period of time, especially when that time includes many people having kids, or just plain getting older. Those change the traveling dynamic more than 15 minutes more of driving time does, I think.

[lakshmi-amman.livejournal.com]

Wow do I sympathize - I had these same debates when house shopping. The challenge of finding a reasonable house inside of 128 is immense - and I see lots of people following suit.

Some thoughts:

- travel time - Framingham isn't bad at off hours. I can make it from Framingham to Dorchester in about an hour - any time, day or night. At rush hour - all bets are off. I've tried 9 and the Pike - both are equally bad. 20/30 is too North for me. It's a reason the Dark Place is more likely to see me on the weekends, than weeknights.

- Weather - Framingham does get more snow than inside 128 - I lived in Medway as a kid. The idea that weather patterns are defined by the two rings of highway - 128 and 495 is relevant. Boston/Waltham gets noticeably less snow than Framingham, which gets less snow than Worchester. The upside? Much of Framingham is more geared toward this - people have yards, snow is managed better. It's not like digging out downtown, desperately looking for a place to put all this white stuff.

[jducoeur]

What have you found to be the reality of rush-hour traffic in towards the city? msmemory, at least, would be coming in from 90 to 128 in the morning, and we need to understand whether that's totally hideous. (128 itself tends to be heavy and slowish, but usually moves pretty steadily.)

[marysdress.livejournal.com]

One question I would have is how many houses have you looked at? It doesn't negate this being a great house, but it is one data point to consider. Are you sure enough you can't find something you want closer that you want to take this one?

[jducoeur]

Some, not tons. We've looked at a substantial number of houses on paper and rejected them. We haven't looked at a lot in person -- but that's because we've been rejecting so many because they are *blatantly* inappropriate. This is only the fourth or fifth house we've looked at in person; the others were nice, but wrong for what we're looking for.

Having Susana on board has changed the terms of engagement a lot: instead of doing ad-hoc looking around the way we did last time, she's sending us reams of listings based on our criteria. Even within those criteria, precious few of the houses have any attraction at all.

Part of the problem is that our architectural tastes are effectively expensive: most inexpensive designs are laid out in exactly the ways we don't want, with lots of relatively little rooms. There are tons of houses that appeal to us, but they mostly cost $700k+...

Think about the good parts

[metageek.livejournal.com]

Think about the good parts. What can you get in Framingham that you can't closer in? Space, obviously. Quiet, probably. What else?

One thing we love about Chelmsford is that we're walking distance from a forest (state park) with hiking trails.

Didn't you mention you'd gone to a great movie+dinner theatre in Framingham? (You posted about it at the time, but I can't find it now.)

Re: Think about the good parts

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

We get privacy (I won't be able to tell if my next door neighbor is working at her computer). Wildlife (abuts wetland area). Hiking trails nearby, in a state park and I believe by tacit agreement on the Boy Scout reservation when it's not full of Scouts.

The movie+dinner place is the Premium Cinema at the AMC movie house on Flutie Pass, which runs between the Natick Mall and the Framingham Mall. They tend not to show a lot of SF/adventure movies, more thrillers and art films, but they have the comfiest seats I've ever found in a movie house.

[laurion]

Join us out here in Framingham; it's quite lovely. Fingers crossed, after our new furniture arrives on Oct 1, we'll get the place clean enough to have a housewarming party.

That said, Framingham really isn't that far from Waltham. There are several good roads to choose from. Framingham has some good movie theaters, and a very nice pair of libraries. It took me a lot of work to get adjusted to it as well, because I've been in Waltham or near parts of Watertown for the past 10 years, and I did have to learn to factor in the extra time to and from hobbies, and the extra time to and from friends. So far it's going pretty well, and I'm sure it'll go better when the place is set up enough to host. (I get that same itch)

[jducoeur]

I'll be honest: having you there is a non-trivial consideration. It gives me *some* hope that we might be able to get, eg, some gaming going, at least on an irregular basis...

[learnedax.livejournal.com]

I'd say if this place is really as good a match as it sounds like, you should try to take it. Psychologically it may seem far, but at most times when people would be coming over it's not. Certainly not from the Waltham area, and not really from elsewhere - I've gone Framingham to Dorcester during typical rush hour in about 45 minutes.

There are some people you know in Framingham already, as well, so you wouldn't be the only ones out there.

The one downside that I would say hasn't been more than passingly touched upon is your own commute times. 90 is usually quite dense traffic eastbound in the morning and westbound in the evening. I haven't done much commuting on 20, 30, or 9, but the few times that I have they have suffered the same traffic issues. You will probably be able to find routes that make it not a terrible commute, but it will almost certainly be rather worse than now.

[msmemory.livejournal.com]

Experimentally, we tried driving out there today at rush hour. Exited from 128 onto 20 at 5:25. Arrived at the light near the possible house at 5:47. (10.8 miles)
Took a different route back, saving .7 mile, but having to pick our way across a couple of tough intersections - a route I would take only if there were obstructions on others.

I'm more worried about mornings than evenings, since I have a fixed time I'm supposed to arrive at work.