Some thoughts on learning "period neutral"

[jducoeur]

As usual, I'm rather behind in my reading, so I only yesterday came across the fascinating discussion that new_man started in his journal, and which seems to have spread to a number of others. (I recommend reading his thread before the following, if you haven't already: I'm responding directly to that conversation. But the summary is that a lot of people are encouraging less modernism at events.) There are a lot of good ideas floating around, and I don't want to be a wet blanket, but I want to make a few observations and suggestions on the topic.

I'd like to step back for a second, and ask an important underlying quesion: why do people do so much modern talking at events? We're unlikely to come up with good solutions if we don't understand the problem. I see several different categories of people, with very different attitudes to the topic, and they suggest different approaches.

First, there are the people who really want to do "period neutral", but don't know how. These folks are motivated to learn how to do it well, and likely to put in some real work to do so. They're the kind of people who participated as "cast" in Le Poulet Gauche, and really got into the roleplay.

Second, there are the people who just plain don't care: who really do think of the SCA as a costume party, and like it that way. Whether you agree or not, that's a common and long-held view among many people in the Society, and it's a valid approach to the club as things now stand.

Third, there are the folks in the middle: those who aren't passionate about changing the culture, but are willing to try a bit to help the atmosphere. Most aren't going to go to a lot of work, though, and some are, frankly, a bit intimidated by the whole thing. (Yes, I know folks who have said as much to me.) Much of this group has no roleplay experience, so they don't have the underlying intuitions about how it works, and are likely to perceive this as much harder to do than it is.

For the first group, the passionate ones, jdulac's "SCA Club Table" and things like it are a good approach: they're interested enough to make the effort to really get into the roleplaying, and likely to enjoy doing it deeply. Note, though, that these sorts of activities often go well beyond simple "period neutral" into active roleplaying -- I'm thinking here of the Le Poulet Gauche Staff Dinners, which we held outside of events, and which were *much* more deeply in-persona than we're talking about here. This is what many people *expect* from such a gathering, and it's one reason why it's exciting to some roleplayers and intimidating to many who aren't. (No, the SCA Club Table doesn't have to be this way. But I suspect that as currently described, it's likely to drift in that direction, simply because it's likely to mainly appeal to the most passionate folks.)

For the second group, the ones who really don't care, I don't recommend worrying about them. The project here must be to change the culture, and that's a slow process. If you tell people, "You must change", many will dig in their heels and actively resist it. The only way to convince folks is to show them, by example, that it's more fun if you do things this way. That process takes many years, so patience is strongly advised.

But it's the third group that I consider most interesting, because I suspect it's the largest one. There are a lot of people (at least, around Carolingia) who kind of understand that the game could be better if we didn't spend so much time at events being modern, but who aren't all that disturbed by the status quo, either, and aren't into doing much roleplaying. How do you help them tweak their habits?

I'd like to suggest something that is along the lines of the "SCA Club Table", but with a different focus: a "period practice". We have lots of practices in Carolingia, for everything from dance to fighting to music. Many of these practices are explicitly designed to help you learn how to better experience events -- to learn a little more depth in a particular area, so that you can do it better at events. Why not do something similar for persona?

This differs from the discussions I've seen of the SCA Club Table in several subtle details:

• First, it's aimed explicitly at that middle group. It is specifically trying to be non-threatening, and highly open. That requires some specific proselytizing, to get a wide variety of people to come try it out.


• Second, it should be structured as part class, part practice, as many Baronial activities are. It needs to start out teaching how to do this stuff, because many people really don't know how. But it then needs to go on to actually do it -- for folks to be in-persona for a time. The complication with this particular practice is that you really can't teach while you're doing it -- the teaching breaks the atmosphere. But the two phases probably need to be occasionally interspersed, so folks can ask questions and then try again. And the teaching needs to be as disciplined as any other teaching: while it's not a hard thing to learn, there are a bunch of little tricks to it, that should be taught in an organized way.


• Third, and perhaps most important: folks need something to do while they're playing persona. It is much, much harder to do in a vacuum -- that requires pure roleplaying, and it's why so many folks find the prospect so intimidating. But in fact, it's really pretty easy while you're doing stuff. That's one of the secrets to avoiding modernisms: the OOP discussion tends to come up when folks don't have other things to do. Eating is one thing you can do, but there are scads of others, and it's worth getting that into folks' heads. In general, the more active people are, the less time they're going to spend talking about computers.

I suppose what I'm proposing is sort of half-event, half-class, an "event practice": a little event-like evening that breaks out to the meta level occasionally and talks about how to do events well. That's something we've really never done, but in retrospect I sort of wonder why. We spend so much time teaching folks how to enjoy specific aspects of events, but we don't teach them how to enjoy the event itself. We should probably rectify that.

No, I'm not volunteering to run this, at least not now. I'm moderately toasty, and desperately trying not to burn myself out -- I've got several offices currently, and I really can't take on more responsibilities. But it sounds like an idea whose time has come, and if someone wants to try running such a thing, I'll be happy to help as I can. This would be a fine project for someone looking for something cool to take on, and doesn't require deep expertise in the subject upfront -- I'm sure that you can get lots of help and advice from those of us who have been doing the period-neutral thing for a number of years...

Comments

[talvinamarich.livejournal.com]

*raises a hand* Guilty as charged.

Mind you, I am not an authenticity person. I admire those who do it, but it isn't my passion.

I read the original post, and I do see the Internet as a contributing factor.

I have lots of SCA friends.

Some of whom I have never met face to face.

Many of whom I only get to see at events.

When I first got into the SCA, the monthly meetings were as much social as business time. That was the SCA I interacted with in the mundane context. This wasn't necessarily a good thing, but that is a whole 'nother topic.

When I met Lord So and So, I knew him only as Lord So and So. I couldn't tell you jack about his mundane job, or that he was going through a divorce, or that we both played GURPS. We talked about medieval things.

I came into the SCA back when the Internet was just starting to be a household word, and the World Wide Web was an infant. As time went on, I got to see how the Net changed the SCA. Now, through things like LJ, I see into these people's mundane lives.

When people interact, they look for a shared experience to start off with, something to set "you and me, here and now" apart from the surroundings, perhaps. Something to talk about. Now I have topics to open up with that have nothing to do with the period.

Sometimes I *have* to: my SCA Office (Web Minister) is about as Mundane as you can get, and it is natural to discuss SCA Business at an SCA Event--it is the only time I am likely to see my superior in the organization and deal with things that can't be dealt with effectively long distance. The problem with that one is obvious. :)

A related problem I have is my Helium Hand. :) The only event I can think of in the last ten years where I was not acting in *some* sort of volunteer capacity was last Yule: we had just moved to a new city, new Barony, first event with this group, had been to two meetings thus far here, and I hadn't gotten roped into anything yet. Aside from that, I am usually dealing with those messy little mundane underpinnings that make all that Period-Ness possible.

So, yeah, it's difficult for me to get in persona.

But you know...I miss it, too. When I first got in, I did a lot of "In Persona" stuff. It was cool. It still is cool.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I may not stay in character the whole time at my next event, but I will certainly try to set aside some time for it at least. Get away from the mundane volunteer stuff and just be Colin for a while.

[jducoeur]

There's a tension here, no question about it. It's a bit less of an issue for some of us here, I think, because Carolingia is pretty closely-knit, with *tons* of practices and social gatherings where the OOP talk is more appropriate; therefore, there's slightly less need for it at events. But I think all of the issues you raise are still present for many people here.

Mostly, I think it's about mindfulness. When you *need* to talk OOP, that's okay -- I do it all the time. When I'm *thinking* about the issue, I try to take it off to the side, though, so I'm not interfering with the atmosphere for the folks who want to immerse in it. The problem is, I frequently just plain forget...

[siderea]

I agree with your break-down of the populations, but...

You seem to be missing the elephant in the living room. Do you really not understand why people have OOP conversations at events?

Your idea of a workshop sounds lovely -- I've done this privately and had a blast -- but I think you have badly misjudged that middle demographic, do not understand why they are not in the enthusiastic demographic and why they will not by and large attend such a thing or benefit by it.

There is a profoundly powerful good reason why people talk about OOP stuff at events, and, bless their hearts, those who grasp on any level what it is will oppose your efforts with all their might. Thank goodness. I am a pretty hard-core Atmospherist who would have loved more immersive events, yet I must say I'm relieved your project of reforming conversations at SCA events will not work as you are proceeding.

[rufinia.livejournal.com]

okay.

Can you share this profoundly good reason?

[siderea]

Emacs says I'm 55 paragraphs in; maybe it belongs in my journal.

[siderea]

Posted.

[goldsquare.livejournal.com]

Which category do folks that do the following fit in?

"I came to be in the SCA, and to do the sorts of recreation that we do in the SCA. To indulge my special interest, whatever it is, that I can only do at an event. But then I see an old friend, and I want to catch up. So I do."

That's where I sit. Where do I fit/sit?

[jducoeur]

Somewhere in between 2 and 3, I suppose -- sensitive to the issue, but it's not a high priority for you.

I doubt that's unusual: my suspicion is that, while I've outlined apparently clearly-defined buckets, there's actually a very smooth spectrum between them, and most people will fall somewhere in between those neat categories. That's okay (hell, it's inevitable), and any attempts to "do something" about the matter will need to account for the fact that, like everything else in the Society, different people *care* about different things.

It's all statistics, from my POV. There's no chance that everyone at a typical is going to be avoiding modernisms any time in the near future. But a bit of consciousness-raising can probably shift the proportions a bit.

Mind, I'm *not* passionate about the subject myself. But I understand that others are, and I think there's some merit in their viewpoint -- I think the game would be better if we spent *less* time on the modernisms. Hence, I'm exploring how we might achieve that...

[vairavi.livejournal.com]

I think I'm definitely in the third group. I like the idea of "playing persona" with people who are interested in doing so. But I also just spent all day hanging out in a shade with a bunch of people who didn't care about being "period neutral" and I had an awesome time. I 100% take my cues from the people around me, and will have fun either way. I know at some point early in our feast experience in Atlantia, lakshmi_amman and I fell right in to persona, even though we hadn't done so all day. In retrospect I can't remember who cued who. Something was said and instead of it being phrased as "in 13th c. India, they did this", it was "In my country it is common for us to eat without utensils" (or something).
I'm not sure exactly what I'm saying here, since I'm a little sun-weary at the moment, but I think it's something about making sure you pass out liberal cues if you're interested in playing that game. If someone's in the 2nd category, they can choose to ignore you, and you (or they) can move on. If they're in the 1st category, they'll probably pick up what you're doing pretty fast and join in. If they're in the third, you may have to try a couple of times, but chances are they'll eventually catch on.

[umbran.livejournal.com]

I think I'll have to join siderea in saying that while you have identified the groups, you have not identified the "problem", the reason people speak as they do. It sits largely as she said - the people are their tribe, and connecting is what people do amongst their tribe-mates.

However, there's a larger issue that got mentioned in new_man's journal which I don't think her social engineering will address - the simple fact of the matter is that most of us live the vast majority of our lives in the modern world. We simply don't have enough conversational material that is easily rendered period-neutral to pull us through an event.

Each of us has some small areas of the hobby that interest us. Those of us who haven't been deeply immersed in SCAdian studies for long periods of time (like, those of us who aren't Laurels) only have a couple of period-relevant topics we can discuss at any depth or length, and only a few others nearby are going to share those particular interests. The rest of the conversation will have to be modern talk with the serial numbers filed off.

And, class or not, filing the serial numbers off the modern conversation is a burden, a speed-bump on the way to reinforcing the community the folks are there to forge. People will go around that speed bump, unless it is the only way to get to something they actually want to have.