Thoughts on TiVo?
Jan. 15th, 2009 12:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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msmemory and I find ourselves pondering what we're going to do about the whole digital-TV switchover. Not that we're receiving signals over-the-air, mind -- the supposedly-government-subsidized converter boxes aren't relevant to us. No, our problem is that the cable industry is lying through its teeth about the "if you have cable, you don't have a problem" thing.You see, we are on cable, and we pay a pretty penny for a fairly high-end package. But the reality is that the cables are *also* switching over to digital, for reasons related to those for the over-the-air change -- it's just lower-bandwidth, which lets them cram more channels in. And this means that any TV that is directly plugged into the cable (as opposed to through a cable box) is potentially screwed. Particularly to us, I am fairly sure that our trusty old Panasonic DVR, which has served us so well for many years, only has an analog receiver, so it's probably toast sometime fairly soon.
So we're pondering our options. We clearly want a functioning DVR -- it's how we watch all the TV we actually give a damn about. (Food Network is fine when we're simply looking for background noise, but we watch most of our series on the DVR.) Enough people have raved about TiVo for long enough that we're considering knuckling under and becoming part of the body.
In which case, the next question is *which* TiVo? The temptation is to go for way-high-end, but I'm taking my time and considering it carefully before spending that much money. The logic for it is that it's a good investment. We're clearly going to want HD capability within the next year or two, so it only makes sense to buy one of the HD models. Besides, the HD model accepts two CableCards, which is probably what we're going to want. (Not to mention the ability to download from Netflix, which is *very* appealing.)
And if we're going to do that, it may make the most sense to shell out the extra $250 for the insanely-large hard drive. The ordinary HD model has more than enough space for conventional-definition shows, but only about 20 hours of HD. Given that we routinely have 100 hours of stuff in our backlog on the Panasonic, this seems like it might become a problem if HD becomes common.
Related to this is the question of which plan to get. Again, there's an argument for going whole-hog: the "lifetime of the DVR" plan is pricey -- about $400 -- but that's the equivalent of about three years of service. If we expect to keep the device in service for a long time (and I'd certainly like to), then the lifetime plan might make sense. Moreover, it potentially increases the resale value of the device considerably if we decided to trade up to something else a few years down the line. So the question there is, how reliable have people found TiVos to be? Can we reasonably expect to get the 5+ years of service it'll take for the lifetime plan to be worthwhile?
Opinions welcomed. I don't have any idea what Comcast's timetable is, but I have no faith that the Panasonic will continue to work past mid-February, so this is gradually turning into a pressing question for us, and we'll have to act soon...
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My thoughts
Date: 2009-01-15 05:44 pm (UTC)Re: My thoughts
Date: 2009-01-15 07:23 pm (UTC)They seem to be doing so, but in a more limited form than it used to be. I gather that the original form was a transferrable lifetime membership for *you*, and those are worth their weight in gold. The current version is for the lifetime of this specific device, so it's still rather nice but requires more careful decision.
I don't recall how much of a hardware geek you are
Not, really. I can deal with basic installs and such, and I *can* deal with more interesting hardware when I need to, but I typically don't find it worth my time. I'm not much of a tinkerer when it comes to hardware. So while the $250 is a bit expensive (probably half-again to twice what I could do if I tried), it may be worth the lowered hassle of just getting it built-in.
Didn't know about GizmoLovers -- thanks for the tip!
Re: My thoughts
Date: 2009-01-15 07:38 pm (UTC)Re: My thoughts
Date: 2009-01-16 02:11 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 05:49 pm (UTC)- we have a Series 1 original TiVo. We bought the lifetime plan for it. We upgraded the little disk. (Actually, metahacker did.) And eventually, we bought a TiVo HD, with a special offer to move over the lifetime plan and put a one-year plan on the old TiVo. That one-year plan has now expired, and yet the S1 TiVo continues to work (hardware-wise).
I think that if you buy a TiVo, it will probably last for 5 years or so, barring accidents.
- we also have a MythTV box. It is as easy to use as the TiVo, and more functional, but also requires enough setup and ongoing maintenance that it is not suitable *yet* for people who don't live in a house with a sysadmin.
In five years, that may change. The current software revision is 0.21, after all.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 07:25 pm (UTC)Useful info -- thanks!
but also requires enough setup and ongoing maintenance that it is not suitable *yet* for people who don't live in a house with a sysadmin.
Yeah, that was my impression. I'm sure I *could* build a suitable MythTV box, but I doubt I'm sufficiently motivated.
This also potentially plays into the lifetime-subscription question. Since it improves the resale value of the TiVo, it may make it easier to sell the thing if and when I decide that MythTV is good enough to replace it...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 12:51 am (UTC)Mine did suffer a drive crash this year but $100 fixed that up and tripled our space. This was after..err...5-6 years of use?
However, TiVo's business plan is currently f*cked. I worry about their ability to survive another 5 years. This is too bad, because their GUI and UE is the best out there, and what makes the product great -- everything from the groundbreaking remote control design to the menu interface.
They got away from usability in the past 5 years in favor of trying to make money (by cramming ads into places that used to be interface) but even so they're still 3x better than every other DVR/On-Demand interface I've seen...
Lifetimes follow the machine, and I think always have -- as dsr says, his Series1 is as old as they come and even its license is mobo-specific.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:10 am (UTC)Lifetimes follow the machine, and I think always have
Yeah -- far as I can tell, I got confused because of the transfers they briefly allowed from older lifetime subscriptions to the Series 3 when it came out...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:33 pm (UTC)I think this means that you can use MythTV in the same situation that you can use your analog DVR -- on the other side of a cable box (which is how TiVo usually works, historically) or with analog (no longer possible in Cambridge: Comcast switched to all Digital in July). I don't know if the Digital converter boxes that you can get rebates for do the digital from the Cable people? I guess that could be an answer for you -- just getting a digital converter box, and using that?
FireWire
Date: 2009-01-16 02:42 pm (UTC)No, but you can get a cable box with a decrypted FireWire output. As I understand it, the cable companies are required to make such a box available.
Re: FireWire
Date: 2009-01-16 02:48 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 05:53 pm (UTC)I presently have a Dual-Tuner Series 2 and think it is fine for what it does. But then I also have Digital Cable packages and several shows that I watch. I have a script that will unDRM the Tivo files once on my Storage network and they get filed away by show for later re-uploading.
Tivo's "video upload" feature is pretty cool but you need to be sure the network connectivity to the Tivo is wired if you're going to be transfering between 2 tivos, pulling stuff to store or uploading torrented files onto it. It also works with Netflix and Amazon's Unbox which can take hours to download a single TV episode or movie if your Net bandwidth is slow and you don't have a decent cable going to the box.
That's MY experience.
In the next few years I'll probably upgrade to an HDTV, Series 3 HDTivo which will also let me auto-pull videos off YouTube which is always fun.
For now, this seems to work OK. I need to get over to Comcast to return the broken cable box upstairs which doesn't appear to be showing digital content.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 07:29 pm (UTC)Hmm. Okay, that's a useful insight. Doesn't necessarily kill the idea, but does strengthen the argument for running a damned ethernet cable upstairs. The cablemodem is necessarily in the basement, since that's where my server lives. For the time being, the upstairs is on 802.11g from there -- it gets adequate but not spectacular signal. It wouldn't be rocket science to run ethernet between the floors, but I'm always leery about punching holes in walls, since I really don't know my way around the carpentry side of the job...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 06:06 pm (UTC)One thing you might want to check is getting TiVo service from Comcast. That is, as long as you need a digital cable box from Comcast, they have some that include DVR capabilities with a TiVo branded UI and service. It costs more than the regular box on a montly basis, but less than if you bought TiVo service yourself, I think, as well as no hardware costs. I haven't looked closely at this, yet, because I really hate the thought of giving any additional money to Comcast.
I had to go to a digital cable box about four months ago. Comcast shoved some of the channels I watch to digital only. This was a bit of a pain, because instead of having Tivoli (my TiVo) tune the channels off the cable directly, it had to be configured to control the cable box to switch stations at need. This works okay, except when it doesn't. I've had a few times where I go to watch something I've recorded, only to find that it recorded something from a different channel, because the cable box has stopped listening to Tivoli's channel change requests. The problem seems to be on the cable box side, as the fix is to power cycle the cable box. It's annoying. So, I'd try to avoid having a separate DVR and cable box, if I could. That can be done either by getting a DVR cable box from the company, or one of the new TiVo's that take Cable Cards.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 06:40 pm (UTC)From all accounts, the TiVo UI on Comcast DVR boxes is slow and buggy.
Incidentally, I used to work with MegaZone (mentioned in etherial's comment above). He's a long term geek and gadget lover. Heck, I knew him before he changed his name :)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 07:34 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'll admit that that's part of my motivation here. The TiVo I'm contemplating is *quite* expensive, but it would pay for itself in a few years, and the money isn't going to Comcast.
If I had to wire a controller from the TiVo to the cablebox, I'd think twice about it -- years of having a cable mouse on the VCR make me cautious. But the HD TiVos not only take CableCards, they take two of them, so my inclination is to scrap the cablebox entirely and focus on those. The result will be that, whereas the Panasonic is essentially at the edge of our current video topology, the TiVo will be front and center...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 07:56 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 12:19 am (UTC)All that said, a DVR would be a better long-term option so I'll be watching the comments on this entry.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 01:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:15 am (UTC)Wouldn't have even known about it myself, but I got treated to a rant on the subject from my father a few months ago. He consults for the cable industry, and is kind of steamed about the fact that even people like us, who are fairly well-informed, mostly haven't heard about this. From what I've been hearing, I'm guessing that they'll transition everybody as soon after the broadcast transition as they can get away with...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 04:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:29 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:40 pm (UTC)I believe they were still legally mandated (until Feb) to do certain broadcast networks in non-Digital, but I couldn't find them looking through the channels. (I didn't investigate hard once I realized the TV I actually cared about didn't work.)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-15 10:00 pm (UTC)If you are going to change a little, it might be an opportunity to change a lot...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:16 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 01:47 am (UTC)RCN recently decided to go all digital. As you said, the logic is similar to the DTV transition, and they're piggybacking on the timeframe to do it. Here's the thing though; the cable companies are not only switching to digital, they're also switching to encrypted channels. As it stands, no DVR can decrypt these signals. I built a DVR with a digital tuner in an attempt to future-proof it. It'll work great with an antenna hooked up, and used to work when RCN had some unencrypted digital channels.
Now I have to have an RCN supplied box anyhow.
Ignoring that argument, I'm a big fan of build over buy, if you're willing to. For about the same cost as that lifetime plan plus the initial costs, you can build a system that will do HAD with plenty of space, and the ability to quickly and cheaply upgrade at any point. Even if you're not interested in mucking around with linux bases systems, you can happily run Windows with Vista MCE, or SageTV. What I would actually recommend is building a system that you can put in your server closet (so to speak) and then use a set top extender (e.g. http://sagetv.com/hd_theater.html). After all, if you're time shifting anyhow, is there a logical reason why the recording device has to be next to the TV?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:19 am (UTC)Do you have reason to believe that CableCards are *not* going to work for most channels? That's one of the main reasons to go with the TiVo -- it takes dual CableCards, and AFAIK that's good enough to at least *watch* everything. (Although I consider it likely that they're going to heavily restrict what one can do in terms of recording of the premium channels.)
I've been assuming that CableCards are going to be completely necessary fairly soon; if you have reason to believe they're insufficient, I want to hear about it...
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:51 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 03:06 am (UTC)http://www.publicknowledge.org/node/951
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081226-comcast-sued-for-not-selling-set-top-boxes-cablecards.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081223-cablecard-still-goes-unloved-except-in-set-top-boxes.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081017-fcc-fines-cable-for-anticompetitive-switched-digital-video.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080922-is-cablecard-a-dud-only-2000-requested-over-summer.html
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080814-angry-customer-sues-time-warner-over-forced-cable-box-rental.html
And there's a pretty good overview of some of the problems on the wikipedia entry for CableCard.
Also of note, the cable companies (with the exception of Charter) are intending to switch to the next generation system (tru2way) this coming summer. I haven't done any research to see if the TiVoHD models will support that or not, I suspect TiVo users on your flist might have a better idea than I.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 03:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-01-16 02:42 pm (UTC)