Second Life, LambdaMOO, VRML and All That

[jducoeur]

goldsquare pointed to an interesting little opinion piece about Second Life (which in turn points to an earlier article that brings up the notion of the "try me" virus). I've been seeing a lot about this today, and I think almost all of it is sort of missing the point.

On the one hand, they're right about the "try me" effect. Many systems hype themselves by talking about the number of people who have ever used them, which is massively misleading -- for most of these things, huge numbers of people try them, say "eh", and leave. Second Life is certainly one of these: it's big, and reasonably popular, but isn't taking over the world to the degree that some of its proponents would like to claim.

And this article makes a good point that these "pure space" plays tend to never become really big. The analogy to LambdaMOO is a good one: that was also a highly extensible virtual world that really mostly got used as a social toy. It didn't *do* anything, and so there wasn't much reason to stay with it. Second Life *might* succumb to the same syndrome, but I'm not yet convinced.

The thing is, these articles are conflating two only semi-related aspects of a virtual world: extensibility and content. It talks about the fact that everyone plays World of Warcraft, far more than do Second Life, and seems to imply that the extensibility of the latter is the cause of that. But that's exactly backwards: rather, it's the *content* of the former that makes it compelling.

The problem is, extensibility and content are often (foolishly) made out to be in tension with each other. We have closed virtual worlds like WoW that have great content, and open ones like SL that don't have anything nearly so compelling. But it's ridiculous to say that this is an inherent problem of extensibility: that's like saying that Prodigy was obviously better than the Web, because they focused on providing content rather than extensibility.

He brings up the topic of VRML, and that sets off a lot of bells for me. I remember the VRML project intimately, having been deeply involved in it in the early days. (Hell, I came up with the name behind the initials.) VRML is a fine example of Missing The Point. Everyone got wrapped up in the bells and whistles of how to create the prettiest possible models and scenes, and ignored the few of us trying to talk about *context*. Discussions of how these worlds interacted, and what you could do with them, simply got lost in the shuffle. And so VRML became pretty much an irrelevance.

That said, just because so many people have done it badly doesn't mean someone isn't eventually going to get it right. It's not easy: you need to come up with an extensible system that allows creation of new spaces and objects; AIs; an open but manageable economic system; and the creation of *story* within that context. That's a big project. But nothing in it is impossible, or even infeasible -- indeed, much of it is solved problems by now. It *will* happen; the only question is when.

(This subject is near and dear to my heart -- it's basically the Braid project, one of the mammoth undertakings that are on my to-do list. I suspect someone else will get to it before I do, but we'll see...)

Comments

[qedrakmar.livejournal.com]

I spent many years MOOing, but as I understand it, Second life has the added benefit that you can profit from it. One can sell the objects one designs in game to other in game players and actually cash out for real world money.

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

One question I haven't yet figured yet is: Aside from the sex services, who is making money? I've bought a few things in-world from a virtual hairdresser, and from someone who sells dresses (although what I bought was "better animations for my avatar so I don't look like a chimp in a dress.") So those folks are making money... some. I wonder how much, though?

[jducoeur]

Right, and that gets into the "need more things to *do*" problem.

The way to make *serious* money here would be if they had sufficient tools to let people design stories. That's getting into some of the problems mentioned above -- you probably need good AIs, you certainly need the ability to automate worldspace, and you probably need a mechanism for genuine conflict (in the conceptual sense: that doesn't necessarily require guns and swords). Combine that with the ability to require payment for access to those areas (probably a fairly flexible mechanism required, so people can try areas out), and you start to get into a proven money-maker.

From the descriptions, they're maybe a quarter of the way there. I'll be curious to see whether they go down this route at all, or simply consider it a non-sequiteur to their plans. Regardless, they *need* to create more compelling in-world content if they're going to survive in the long run, preferably by giving players the tools to create such content themselves, and the best gauge of "compelling" is whether people will pay for it...

[cvirtue.livejournal.com]

I have heard that there are user-created role playing and other games inside of SL, but I don't know anything about them.

I've been to a book group, and I've enjoyed exploring and making things. I'm hoping to get a small SCA discussion/meeting going on in-world, just for kicks. But I've only been online there some 20 hours at most.

Tangent: it seems your journal won't let me track a whole post -- I can only track individual reply-threads. I wonder if this is what other readers of your journal see, or if it's something odd with my setup?

[mneme]

I see tehe little post-it that would let me track the whole post.

But I also have the thing toggled on that lets me view everyone's journal in my own style -- I don't see a way to do it in Justin's style. (having opened up a frame with that view). jducoeur, you may want to fix this (but until then, well, you can use &style=mine unless your style also doesn't have the little thumbtacks.

In the end, I think we really need a weblike open protocol, with no central bank, for a truly interesting open vr setup to work. And 2nd life isn't it -- but we'll see.

[jducoeur]

Yep. That's exactly the Braid project. The fact that it's dauntingly huge is the only reason I haven't tried to lead it myself already...

[jducoeur]

Dunno. I haven't tried using the tracking functions myself yet, so I haven't noticed if there's something odd there. Are you viewing my journal using your style, or mine? It's entirely possible that my style isn't fully compatible with tracking -- it's pretty old, and needs an overhaul...

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

Real-estate agents, for one. Not what I would have guessed, but there it is.

[jducoeur]

Yes, and that's a good start. I suspect that Linden's control over that economy will eventually prove problematic (they're essentially a central bank, AFAIK, and it's easy to abuse that position), and it's still a closed (if large) system. But it's moving in one useful direction, of several that need to be explored...

[alexx-kay.livejournal.com]

that's like saying that Prodigy was obviously better than the Web, because they focused on providing content rather than extensibility.

An excellent analogy. And there was a time when no one saw how the web could possibly make money for people. The eventual applications for virtual reality will probably be as unanticipated, and as obvious in hindsight.

and the creation of *story* within that context

Here, however, I think you're completely wrong. To a first approximation, the world doesn't want story in their interactive environments. You and I travel in unusually story-positive circles, but the numbers say that we're outliers.

[jducoeur]

Well, I mean "story" in only the loosest sense here. I'm including, eg, WoW style quests in that rubric -- indeed, that's the main thing I'm referring to here, so that one can write a halfway decent MMORPG inside this thing. I don't necessarily mean story in the deep and complex sense (which I think *will* emerge if you build an open system that permits the simpler stuff, but I'm content to let them be an emergent behavior)...

[bkdelong.livejournal.com]

Ah yes....VRML. Small world:

http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-vrml.1995q2/1987.html

http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-vrml.1995q2/1984.html

My first time trying to shepherd the naming of a Usenet group.

-----

I think one of the most intriguing and engaging features of "Second Life" is the capabilities of customizing it. It would be the perfect place for the SCA, say, to buy a huge chunk of Virtual Land and create a digital version of the Knowne Worlde.

This was one of my most favorite features of Neverwinter Nights from Bioware. I think I played with the game 2 or 3 times but spend almost 3 YEARS working with a group to recreate the Dungeons & Dragons Planescape City of Doors aka Sigil. In fact, Bioware had contracted with our group to create some custom game modules for sale and play but in the end Atari & WOTC screwed up the contracting.

Virtual environments with that level of customability are incredible as one can create their own virtual world, the universe of any particular fandom or even use it as the basis of running their own RPG adventures. It has also led to some really cool research from self-replication & AI evolution to corporate involvement in VR. SL is probably a long way away from actual long-term user retention. But as long as it keeps sucking in the visionaries who have ideas on how to create groundbreaking VR tech then it will continue to grow - albeit slowely.

[jducoeur]

Ah yes....VRML. Small world:

Hah! Okay, I'm amused -- I hadn't remembered that our paths had crossed before. I had thought that your name sounded familiar, but the context was *so* different.

As for SL, I think they've got one key element: the ability to customize your environment. AFAIK (not having really used it myself) they still need more capability to *manipulate* that environment, but they're clearly moving in a good direction...